Curse

winkgood · Sep 08, 2006, 12:59 AM // 00:59

First off, I have very few weapons in my collection which use sundering. However, its not the utterly useless mod that you people make it out to be. All I see in this thread are a bunch of flamers who know very little about the game but they heard from others that "sundering sucks" so they decided to jump on the bandwagon.

Jeez people, give the guy a break. Not everyone can afford a different weapon and mod setup for every situation. In general, sundering is the safest way to go as there are no drawbacks to it and it is always useful. Vampiric requires the wielder to switch weapons to another for effectiveness. Furious requires you to use adreneline skills to be useful. Elemental assumes you aren't fighting against a ranger or npc with resistance to that element. Zealous is nice but if you aren't hitting constantly, then you are suffering from a considerable energy disadvantage.

For everyone's info, sundering actually will outdamage vampiric when using an adreneline based axe warrior. I would find the link to the thread on this but gwonline is having issues, atm. A sword warrior's damage is slighly lower with sundering than vampiric but is definitely not the huge different that you would think based on everyone's cries that "sundering sucks."

In summary, if all you want to do is stand on your soapbox and tell everyone how much sundering sucks, then please do the rest of us a favor and shut your yapper.

Evilsod · Sep 08, 2006, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

First off, I have very few weapons in my collection which use sundering. However, its not the utterly useless mod that you people make it out to be. All I see in this thread are a bunch of flamers who know very little about the game but they heard from others that "sundering sucks" so they decided to jump on the bandwagon.

Its quite likely 3/4 of the people who have said 'Sundering sucks' (of which i will be one soon) have seen the numbers crunchers proof that it sucks. So yeah, sundering S*U*C*K*S

Quote:

Jeez people, give the guy a break. Not everyone can afford a different weapon and mod setup for every situation. In general, sundering is the safest way to go as there are no drawbacks to it and it is always useful. Vampiric requires the wielder to switch weapons to another for effectiveness. Furious requires you to use adreneline skills to be useful. Elemental assumes you aren't fighting against a ranger or npc with resistance to that element. Zealous is nice but if you aren't hitting constantly, then you are suffering from a considerable energy disadvantage.

If he can't afford a different mod for every situation... why is he using a Crenallated Sword? A rare (max damage) skin. Myself i have a 15^50 req8 10/10 +30 Chaos Axe, why? I thought sundering was the bomb when i modded it. However its uncustomised and i have 'never' used it. Zealous is a hindrence if you arent hitting, so is vampiric... so why not switch weapons when you aren't hitting? Things don't kite in PvE and if your playing with the right team in PvP, they can't in some cases there either. Furious however is utter crap imo. There is a drawback to sundering, there are 2 infact. 1 They cost a fortune for little effect. There effect is a CHANCE.

If i could be bothered to mod my own weapons isntead of using greens i'd have the majority with defensive mods. Armour matters from the first time you get hit. Health matters when the little red bar gets closer to 0. Even if the damage is armour ignoring/degen it makes no difference to you till you get to 1.

Shadowfox1125 · Sep 08, 2006, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

i use troll ungent to regain health. and i change around with bonetti's defense and defensive stance to help me a little more.

I'll help you with what you said above and stay out of the Sword mod argument (I'm against Sundering. Deal with it.)

Ditch the Troll Ungent.. and all your points in Wilderness - ask yourself, how much does the Troll Ungent actually heal you? And then ask yourself how much Healing Signet would do if you put the points you took out of Wilderness and added them to Tactics? Plus, it'll make your Bonetti and Defensive Stance more effective.

Jeez.. so how many different attributes do you invest in?
I'll take a guess:
Sword, Strength, Tactics, Wilderness, and Beast Mastery?
That's five different attributes.. you're most likely spread so thin that you don't do much damage nor heal yourself efficiently.

There are some good warrior guides here in this forum and a great warrior guide at guildwiki (they might be the same, I'm not sure). Look at those for help.

Good luck.

Gigashadow · Sep 08, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkgood

For everyone's info, sundering actually will outdamage vampiric when using an adreneline based axe warrior. I would find the link to the thread on this but gwonline is having issues, atm. A sword warrior's damage is slighly lower with sundering than vampiric but is definitely not the huge different that you would think based on everyone's cries that "sundering sucks."

Wrong, it is a large difference, and whether the warrior is adrenaline based or not has no relevance whatsoever. Vampiric is almost twice as good. For the numbers see here here

And "it's too expensive/hard to have two weapons" is a terrible/lazy excuse. Just get a generic collector weapon and buy one of the bazillion cheap vampiric mods being sold in Lion's Arch (they're cheap because dumb people bid up those 20/20 sundering mods instead). ...unless you care more about looks than making yourself useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkgood

In summary, if all you want to do is stand on your soapbox and tell everyone how much sundering sucks, then please do the rest of us a favor and shut your yapper.

How about, if all you want to do is post things that are known to be clearly WRONG, you do everyone here a favor and shut yours?

warriorsmiley · Sep 08, 2006, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkgood

Jeez people, give the guy a break. Not everyone can afford a different weapon and mod setup for every situation. In general, sundering is the safest way to go as there are no drawbacks to it and it is always useful. Vampiric requires the wielder to switch weapons to another for effectiveness. Furious requires you to use adreneline skills to be useful. Elemental assumes you aren't fighting against a ranger or npc with resistance to that element. Zealous is nice but if you aren't hitting constantly, then you are suffering from a considerable energy disadvantage.

Ya sundering sucks end of story there are many threads that already proved it. However it isnt totally useless as i use it as a switch off weapon when im not doing anything so i dont suffer health or energy degen.

You say give the guy a break that he cant afford the other mods. 20/20 sundering mod goes for about 45-55k. I got my vamp, zealous, elemental, and 20/19 mods for 20k all together. Thats half the price you would pay for a perfect sundering mod and as you can see i got more out of it then you did and i also picked up a 20/19 mod which is just as good. Like i said before if your going energy heavy zealous mod is the best no if ands or buts about it, and its about 5-8k(alot cheaper then sundering). If your not smart enough to realize to change weapons when you arent attacking so you have no negative affects then you need some sort help.

Franco · Sep 08, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

And "it's too expensive/hard to have two weapons" is a terrible/lazy excuse. Just get a generic collector weapon and buy one of the bazillion cheap vampiric mods being sold in Lion's Arch (they're cheap because dumb people bid up those 20/20 sundering mods instead). ...unless you care more about looks than making yourself useful.

Well said, That was my point, why you defending him saying he cant afford a vampiric mod ?

Oh so he can afford a perfect sundering mod and a Crenellated sword but he cant afford a vamp mod which is like 8k ?

Jeremy Untouchable · Sep 08, 2006, 03:44 PM // 15:44

sundering is fine for a all purpose sword, maybe in a riptoes (pun intended) build. And furious wasnt ment for warriors, its for us 55's to charge up Bonettis

sundering is kinda, for me anyway,the mod i leave on untill i find something else, Allso, i allmost allways use a +5 energy weapon on my warrior, Whos smarter? me 32 energy customized totem axe, or the guy with a sword or axe with a 15>50 damage mod hes scared to customize? I gain 5 energy, AND 5% damage....................totem axe also has 20/20 sundering........ZOMG...........out

Skuld · Sep 08, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

How can you compare a 20% customised +5e to an uncustomised 15%..

Totem is a caster axe, don't embarass yourself.

warriorsmiley · Sep 08, 2006, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Monk/Warriors arent real warriors.

winkgood · Sep 08, 2006, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Its quite likely 3/4 of the people who have said 'Sundering sucks' (of which i will be one soon) have seen the numbers crunchers proof that it sucks. So yeah, sundering S*U*C*K*S

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

Wrong, it is a large difference, and whether the warrior is adrenaline based or not has no relevance whatsoever. Vampiric is almost twice as good.

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthrea...ight=sundering

In most cases, vampiric will have SLIGHTLY higher DPS than sundering. Check out the adreneline axe tests, though. Does lower DPS mean that sundering "sucks"? Not by any means. What happens when you have blind or blurred vision on? Or your target is using distortion or another evasion stance. Then your vampiric becomes a liability. Before coming out with absolute statements, do a little research first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

If he can't afford a different mod for every situation... why is he using a Crenallated Sword? A rare (max damage) skin. Myself i have a 15^50 req8 10/10 +30 Chaos Axe, why? I thought sundering was the bomb when i modded it. However its uncustomised and i have 'never' used it. Zealous is a hindrence if you arent hitting, so is vampiric... so why not switch weapons when you aren't hitting? Things don't kite in PvE and if your playing with the right team in PvP, they can't in some cases there either. Furious however is utter crap imo. There is a drawback to sundering, there are 2 infact. 1 They cost a fortune for little effect. There effect is a CHANCE.

So effects being "a chance" makes them utter crap? I guess the pre-nerf rockmolder sucked too, eh? Or 20/20's on staffs and offhands? Better rethink your philosophy because I'd wager most would disagree with it. Apparently you don't have a whole lot of pvp experience where adreneline spikes are the makers and breakers of kills in most gvg builds. Furious can accelerate the frequency of adreneline spikes like you wouldn't believe.

Sundering costs a fotune if you are going for a perfect 20/20 one. 20/19 is far cheaper. The same goes for any expensive mod. Just get something slightly less than perfect.

Quote:

If i could be bothered to mod my own weapons isntead of using greens i'd have the majority with defensive mods. Armour matters from the first time you get hit. Health matters when the little red bar gets closer to 0. Even if the damage is armour ignoring/degen it makes no difference to you till you get to 1.

In PVP Fortitude > Defense in almost all situations. There is way too much armor ignoring damage and degen to make defense a viable mod. Every time you are healed to full health, you are seeing the benefits of fortitude as you are that much further from a spike. If GvG strategy consisted of damage over time with only physical and elemental damage, then I could agree with you. Unfortunately, this is not the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

And "it's too expensive/hard to have two weapons" is a terrible/lazy excuse. Just get a generic collector weapon and buy one of the bazillion cheap vampiric mods being sold in Lion's Arch (they're cheap because dumb people bid up those 20/20 sundering mods instead). ...unless you care more about looks than making yourself useful.

Um, no. Two things determine price. Supply and demand. True, the price of 20/20 sundering mods is inflated because everyone seems to think if they sell perfect req8 15^50 weapons with sundering on them, that they will somehow profit more. An even bigger factor though is the rarity of 20/20 sundering mods. Compare the number of perfect vampiric mods you've found in the game with the number of 20/20 sundering mods. Personally, I've found tons of vamp mods and maybe a couple perfect sundering mods (I think both were unsuccessful salvages).

Franco · Sep 08, 2006, 08:24 PM // 20:24

The Point here is. If he wants energy for his build, Zealous ftw.

But this is totally off topic.

Fortitude mod is better if you are suffering hexes and armor ignoring damage.

Defense mod is better if you are just tanking meele and other mob like that.

So in my opinion, if you are going to a place of hexes, conditions etc, like PvP areas > Forittude

PvE which is probably where you are working , go Defense.

Gigashadow · Sep 08, 2006, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkgood

http://forums.gwonline.net/showthrea...ight=sundering

In most cases, vampiric will have SLIGHTLY higher DPS than sundering. Check out the adreneline axe tests, though. Does lower DPS mean that sundering "sucks"? Not by any means.

Those calculations are flawed, as they use Wild Blow, which is guaranteed to crit. This makes sundering appear better than it actually is on those tests. It inflates axes' sundering numbers even further, as axes have a higher damage range, and a crit is ~141% of the maximum damage of a weapon.

Jetdoc · Sep 08, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkgood

Does lower DPS mean that sundering "sucks"? Not by any means. What happens when you have blind or blurred vision on? Or your target is using distortion or another evasion stance. Then your vampiric becomes a liability.

So you're basing whether one modifier is better than another assuming that you can't attack?

That's one of the worst arguments for justifying a weapon modifier that I've seen. You can make an argument that sundering is better for the potential of "spike" damage (i.e. getting lucky and hitting that 20% chance 2-3 times in a chain), but arguing that "lower DPS" doesn't mean it's a worse modifier is an oxymoron.

The purpose of weapons is to DAMAGE. And if one modifier is proven to give you a higher Damage Per Second than another modifier, it is simply better.

Dante the Warlord · Sep 08, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Yea i totaly agree with winkgood and jeremy (and shadowfox, thanx for the advice...but can i ask wht use full wilderness are there?). Anyways, i am NOT rich, crellenated may be an expensive skin, but i got a lot of money from gifts and loans i got from my brother and i am still paying the loans back. i spend some time trying to make some good $$$.

If you disagree, then just don't post it like winkgood says and stop hating, maybe i do less damage, but then again, a few points damage won't matter and plus i can definately see winkgood's point on no drawbacks...

i can definately see how vampiric has good benifits, but all that number crunching always says "overall damage" few of you actually look into the vitallity... again, i think vampiric is ok...but i like the safetyness and easiness of sundering makes me feel that sundering is the better choice for me.

And for all you flamers saying "SUNDERING SUCKS". whats the point, what you want everyone to think like you do, act like you do? Have no opinions??? Then vampiric will be like 60k and then all of you will be like "VAMPIRIC SUCKS" and then have evryone flame you??? Come on, you guys are acting like whiny little kids who complain about every little thing... don't you guys believe in HAVING FUN anymore????? Its all about being on edge, paying so close attention to everything in a cool game and always think that your better then people who disagree?

Dante the Warlord · Sep 08, 2006, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Franco

The Point here is. If he wants energy for his build, Zealous ftw.

But this is totally off topic.

Fortitude mod is better if you are suffering hexes and armor ignoring damage.

Defense mod is better if you are just tanking meele and other mob like that.

So in my opinion, if you are going to a place of hexes, conditions etc, like PvP areas > Forittude

PvE which is probably where you are working , go Defense.

thanx i got so angry that people think they are better than me that i forgot what i was originally asking anyways.. thanx i like defense

winkgood · Sep 08, 2006, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

Those calculations are flawed, as they use Wild Blow, which is guaranteed to crit. This makes sundering appear better than it actually is on those tests. It inflates axes' sundering numbers even further, as axes have a higher damage range, and a crit is ~141% of the maximum damage of a weapon.

Think of how many spikes in pvp are done as the target is fleeing. All hits to a fleeing target will result in a critical hit. So in testing, a high number of critical hits should be included. Also, the reason the op used wild blow was to get a consistent amount of damage. Other tests are by far more flawed as the damage done varies with each hit.

Jetdoc · Sep 08, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Dante, these posts are absolutely not about flaming. It's to simply state that people use sundering because it sounds flashy - "I get to do 20% armor penetration - that's SWEET!!!!"

"Vampiric sounds kind of okay, but man, I hate having ANY negatives to my weapon."

That's the type of attitude that we are trying to dispel here - Vampiric's health degeneration is well worth the benefit you get from utilizing it. Number crunching aside, it's simply been proven to be much more effective than vampiric. winkgood, unfortunately, is spreading downright inaccurate information. That's not flaming - it's the simple truth, and there is very little debate about it.

Regarding why Sundering is so much more expensive than Vampiric, it was summarized very well by another poster - there are only three variations of vampiric on swords/axes - 3/1, 2/1 and 1/1, and most of the time the 3/1 drops. As such, almost every vampiric mod available out there is "perfect" - which is why it is so cheap to get a vampiric (normally available for 3-5K).

Sundering drops anywhere from a 10% chance to a 20% chance, so it is much more rare to get a 20% chance modifier. Because it is so rare and people have misconceptions about its usefulness, that is why it is so expensive.

Again, these posts are not to put you on the defensive (pun intended). They are simply to explain why sundering is an inferior choice to vampiric in almost every way. That being said, you can definitely have fun with your weapon and, as long as you enjoy it, that's what really counts.

Jetdoc · Sep 08, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkgood

All hits to a fleeing target will result in a critical hit. Also, the reason the op used wild blow was to get a consistent amount of damage.

Unless you are an A/W, basing your choice of a weapon modifier on the highly conditional chance that you'll score a critical hit is a poor criteria, unless you use sundering as a switch-off weapon when chasing down a PvP opponent.

I don't believe the OP was planning on using his sword solely for chasing down PvP opponents, so I'm not sure how your argument helps his consideration.

Franco · Sep 08, 2006, 08:59 PM // 20:59

hehe

No problem dude.

I personaly use Zealous and defense mod ,because zealous keeps my energy up ALL the time ^_^.

But if you bought a 20/20 mod for sword just keep it like tht if u like it, its good to show off hehe lol

Yanman.be · Sep 08, 2006, 09:06 PM // 21:06

I love this thread.

Health = PvP, Defense = PvE

So go with defense, because I don't think you'll ever be good at PvP if you keep that attitude.